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Traveller-digest     Monday, December 20 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1538<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: San Francisco Trav game<BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Online game.<BR>
Re: Wild Geese, a mercenary ticket<BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Reminders<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: OT<BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Vanishing Wetlands...<BR>
Re: San Francisco Trav game<BR>
Re: War of 1812<BR>
Re: Mars Exploration<BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Re: Mars Exploration<BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Re: South Park's Cartman as a Imperial Noble <BR>
RE: the north american union<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
Scumbags (was: chicks with guns, and 3I porno)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:45:46 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: San Francisco Trav game<BR>
<BR>
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>Subject:<BR>
>Re: San Francisco Trav game<BR>
<BR>
>> If anyone swings by between 8 and10pm, I'll drink<BR>
>>some Guinness with you.  I'll be wearing my GURPS <BR>
>>Traveller shirt.<BR>
<BR>
>:(  Does it have to be so late?  I work at UCSF and I<BR>
<BR>
>really don't want to go all the way home on Muni and <BR>
>then come back out in the same direction.<BR>
<BR>
We all have different perspectives.  I rarely get out<BR>
of the office before 7 p.m., so 8 is a little early<BR>
for me.<BR>
<BR>
>If I join you will someone drop me off home in the <BR>
>Mission? <BR>
<BR>
If I am able to go, I'll be happy to drop you at home<BR>
- -- but I can't guarantee that I'll be there.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:01:21 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
>From: JFZeigler@aol.comSubject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
>I'm developing Terra (era 1120 in the G:T timeline) <BR>
>for SJG.  Right now I'm thinking that virtually <BR>
>*none* of the nation-states of the late 20th Century<BR>
>still exist in any significant form in the Third<BR>
>Imperium era.<BR>
>I mean, think about it. . .how many nation-states of <BR>
>about 1650 BC still exist today?  Ignoring the<BR>
>question of whether there *were* any nation-<BR>
>states in the modern sense that far back, you get <BR>
>maybe two: Egypt and China.<BR>
<BR>
India?  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:15:39 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Online game.<BR>
<BR>
    I'm seriously bored.<BR>
    If anyone feels like some online Traveller CT at web RPG I have about 5<BR>
hours to burn.<BR>
    Jim L.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:13:24 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Wild Geese, a mercenary ticket<BR>
<BR>
At 08:12 pm 12/19/99 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>Hey<BR>
><BR>
>I have just finished watching the movie 'Wild Geese", a mercenary <BR>
>movie set in late 60 early 70's Africa.  Has anyone done or heard of<BR>
<BR>
>a Traveller adventure based on this movie.  I think it would make<BR>
for <BR>
>a great  mercenary ticket adventure.  Any thoughts?<BR>
><BR>
>I think another good mercenary story is a book called the Crystal <BR>
>Mountain, does anybody know if this is the right name, because I <BR>
>would like to read it again.  <BR>
<BR>
	I *believe* you're thinking of "The Dogs of War," by Frederick<BR>
Forsythe, which IIRC features a mountain called Crystal Mountain as<BR>
the "pull" of the story. Either way, it's a good mercenary book (in<BR>
both meanings).<BR>
<BR>
- -- As Dick Cavett put it so eloquently many years ago, "If violence<BR>
in TV and<BR>
movies causes violence in the world, how come we don't see random<BR>
acts of<BR>
situation comedy breaking out on the streets?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:35:14 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
From: <JFZeigler@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I'm developing Terra (era 1120 in the G:T timeline) for SJG.  Right<BR>
>now I'm thinking that virtually *none* of the nation-states of the late<BR>
>20th Century still exist in any significant form in the Third Imperium<BR>
>era.<BR>
<BR>
I agree, but I think that it's for different reasons.<BR>
<BR>
> I mean, think about it. . .how many nation-states of about 1650 BC<BR>
>still exist today?  Ignoring the question of whether there *were* any<BR>
>nation-states in the modern sense that far back, you get maybe two:<BR>
>Egypt and China.<BR>
<BR>
That's a really tough question to ignore. There are fundamental differences<BR>
between the nation-states of 1650 BC and the nation-states of today.<BR>
<BR>
I personally think that the current trend of increasingly fractured<BR>
nation-states and the rise of "borderless" identification groups will<BR>
continue. In addition, I think that economic polities will be the route of<BR>
the future, or at least the near future.<BR>
<BR>
I must add the disclaimer that I don't think that those trends are a good<BR>
thing, it just happens to look like the way things are going.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:38:18 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Reminders<BR>
<BR>
I wanted to remind everyone and give a heads up to the new folks that we<BR>
have two excellent resources for Traveller gamers.<BR>
<BR>
- - Rob Eaglestone put together a huge list of Active Traveller Campaigns from<BR>
around the globe.  Every active gaming group he could find is listed along<BR>
with when they meet and what flavor they play.  Great list to browse if you<BR>
are looking for a game or even if you just want to get a snapshot of the<BR>
health of the game - http://www.downport.com/understanding/active.html<BR>
<BR>
- - Citizens of the TML is another great resource that lists not only the<BR>
names, but a little bit about any  member of the Traveller Mailing List who<BR>
cares to be listed.  Wondering who just flamed you of just wrote in your<BR>
defense?  Check the list to listing to see if you can find out more about<BR>
where he or she is coming from.<BR>
http://www.downport.com/understanding/TML.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:11:28 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 20 Dec 1999, Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > > <sulk> Fine.  Don' wanna anyway.  I'm gonna get my own toys!<BR>
> > > ><BR>
> > > Aw Kenji-kun, stop that, or else Mistress Tiamat will have to punish<BR>
> > > you,<BR>
> > > and I work in the UCSF department of biochemistry...<BR>
> <BR>
> Please, children (a term I use advisedly, as I remeber seeing Woodstiock on<BR>
> the evening news), this is a PG13 list and while I'd dearly like to discuss<BR>
> the use of grav plates in suspension techniques, doing so might cause moral<BR>
> umbrage. Or something.<BR>
> <BR>
If Kenji and I are grownups, that is a truly frightening thought.<BR>
<BR>
kirichan yori  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:56:05 -0500<BR>
From: pould@netcom.ca<BR>
Subject: Re: OT<BR>
<BR>
During the American Revolution, after Montreal was taken by the American<BR>
troops, Ben Franklin came and attempted to convince the population to join<BR>
in the rebellion against the King.  It was felt on the US side that the<BR>
fact that the population was french and catholic would be easier to<BR>
convince to rebel against the english king.  THe Church was extremely<BR>
powerful in lower Canada (now Quebec) and the Catholic Church had a very<BR>
good relationship with the English government.  There was very little trust<BR>
of the americans.  THe Church convinced the local canadians to refuse to<BR>
support the americans.<BR>
<BR>
Later, the americans were defeated before Quebec City (I think they were<BR>
led by that great Patriot: Benedict Arnold ;-)).<BR>
<BR>
It is also interesting to note that there was a lot of moral support for<BR>
the rebellion in Nova Scotia.  It is only a later landing of troops by the<BR>
British that stopped the province from becoming one of the rebel colonies<BR>
(14 stars anyone?).  Nova Scotia, after Canada was created, was the<BR>
location of the first separatist movement in Canada.  It has since died,<BR>
but it existed at some point.<BR>
<BR>
One question to my US friends, it has to do with Benedict Arnold.  I seem<BR>
to recall reading somewhere that when the US government issued a stamp<BR>
using a famous painting on it, they "brushed out" Benedict Arnold, who was<BR>
in the original painting.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 09:01 1999-12-20 EST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
><< No offence to our army men (both of you) but it would be<BR>
> something of a cake-walk for the U.S. to take over Canada. >><BR>
><BR>
>IIRC, the last time we invaded Canada we got our heads handed to us (War of <BR>
>1812). I don't count that Fenian thing in the 1800s, as that was not carried <BR>
>out by the US government.<BR>
><BR>
><< Apparently  plans have been drawn up on both sides of the border for just <BR>
>such<BR>
> an eventuality.  >><BR>
><BR>
>Dunno about the Canadian side, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a <BR>
>plan in a dusty file in the pentagon somewhere on what to do if Canada is <BR>
>taken over by some hideously hostile enemy. And, of course, there is "Plan <BR>
>Crimson" or whatever it was called from the 1930s.<BR>
><BR>
><< Do<BR>
> I remeber correctly that there is an American founding document (I don't<BR>
> think the constitution itself, but soemthing related) that specifically<BR>
> allows for Canadian provinces to becomes states?  >><BR>
><BR>
>Not that I know of -- beyond the provisions for territories becoming states, <BR>
>but that's in the constitution.<BR>
><BR>
>LKW<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:22:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: JFZeigler@aol.comSubject: Re: United States<BR>
><BR>
>>I'm developing Terra (era 1120 in the G:T timeline) <BR>
>>for SJG.  Right now I'm thinking that virtually <BR>
>>*none* of the nation-states of the late 20th Century<BR>
>>still exist in any significant form in the Third<BR>
>>Imperium era.<BR>
>>I mean, think about it. . .how many nation-states of <BR>
>>about 1650 BC still exist today?  Ignoring the<BR>
>>question of whether there *were* any nation-<BR>
>>states in the modern sense that far back, you get <BR>
>>maybe two: Egypt and China.<BR>
><BR>
> India?  <BR>
<BR>
That was the *height* of the Assyrian Empire IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
The Minoan Empire is a possibilty, but I think the eruption of Thera<BR>
wiped them out centuries earlier.<BR>
<BR>
The Phoenicians might be around. <BR>
<BR>
Other "countries" to consider are things like the Anasazi in the<BR>
Southwest, the folks who built Ankor Wat in Cambodia, etc. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:43:08<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Vanishing Wetlands...<BR>
<BR>
TNS 232-1002, Terra/Sol<BR>
<BR>
"Imperial Forces made another stride towards victory today with the capture<BR>
of the San Francisco Valley region.  The picturesque area, famous for its<BR>
mountainous original settlement called "the old 47" by locals, was taken in<BR>
a determined series of attacks by the rebuilt 85th Grav Tank Army.<BR>
<BR>
Troops of the 3412th Lift Infantry Brigade have set up defensive screens to<BR>
the east of the Oaktown Highlands.  Local reaction is muted, except in the<BR>
eastern parts of the area where troops have been trouble by raiders.<BR>
<BR>
Solomani troops are dug in around the base of Mt. Farallon, but are<BR>
expected to fall with the week."<BR>
<BR>
The previous is probably meaningless to the non-SFers, but it is a nice<BR>
lead in for an article in today's Chronicle.  Evidently, the Bay is a<BR>
transitory feature.  In fact, it's an aberration!<BR>
<BR>
Makes you wonder what else will have changed by the time of Traveller...<BR>
<BR>
Full story:<BR>
<BR>
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/1999/12/20/MN56977.DTL&nl=fi<BR>
x<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:07:45<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: San Francisco Trav game<BR>
<BR>
At 11:47 AM 12/20/1999 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Funny you should mention this... Ross and I are going to an Irish pub in <BR>
>San Francisco (Pat O'Sheas on the corner of Geary and 3rd Avenue) to talk <BR>
>about this very thing tonight.  If anyone swings by between 8 and 10pm, <BR>
>I'll drink some Guinness with you.  I'll be wearing my GURPS Traveller shirt.<BR>
<BR>
You two are in MY PUB and nobody called me!?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:12:34<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
At 08:58 AM 12/20/1999 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>(8) Since the commanders haven't heard about the peace, British and<BR>
>US soliders fight at New Orleans; the US wins the battle.<BR>
<BR>
(9) The United States 7th Infantry, fighting at New Orleans, get stuck with<BR>
the dumbest unit nickname in the history of armed conflict.<BR>
<BR>
"The Cottonbalers"<BR>
<BR>
It was interesting to see campaign banners from both sides of the Civil War<BR>
in the staff briefing room though...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:16:27 -0500<BR>
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mars Exploration<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>There's no shortage of people who think a fully-reusable lifter<BR>
> wouldn't be very useful, the problem is that the number of<BR>
> working prototypes is currently zero, and based on the history<BR>
> of the industry, the odds of any one of various reusable<BR>
> booster schemes currently being proposed actually working as<BR>
> advertised is quite low.  Spending several years and hundreds<BR>
> of millions of dollars on something which has maybe a 20%<BR>
> chance of working is not the sort of thing that excites<BR>
> corporate sponsors....<BR>
<BR>
Wilbur and Orville had similar problems a century ago. Even<BR>
supposing you did invent a machine that could fly, what use would<BR>
it possibly be? The number of working prototypes was zero, the<BR>
history of the industry was even more dismal than the aerospace<BR>
industry is now, and ISTR they got the same kind of reactions<BR>
from backers they approached.  <BR>
<BR>
> Actually, expendables are cheaper than existing reusables.<BR>
<BR>
What existing reusables? The four shuttle orbiters? The main fuel<BR>
tank is still a multimillion dollar throwaway, the boosters have<BR>
to be recovered from somewhere downrange and rebuilt, and the<BR>
engines have to be stripped and rebuilt after every flight. It's<BR>
little wonder current expendables are cheaper.  Then, too, nearly<BR>
the whole US space program and not just a comsat is riding on<BR>
each flight, so this kludge has to be made as safe to fly as<BR>
human effort can make it. By the time you count that expense in,<BR>
cheaper expendables are no wonder at all.<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, the problem is that they can't guarantee a profit<BR>
>_ever_, and certainly aren't going to generate a profit in the<BR>
>next five years.<BR>
<BR>
Guaranteeing any profit, let alone a quick one, is more than they<BR>
ought to do, and both companies and investors should know it.<BR>
Pioneering new technology is inherently risky. Investors<BR>
overestimating the risks and underestimating the potential return<BR>
appears to be the real problem.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:25:31 EST<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12/20/99 6:02:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
gmgoffin@yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>  >I mean, think about it. . .how many nation-states of <BR>
>  >about 1650 BC still exist today?  Ignoring the<BR>
>  >question of whether there *were* any nation-<BR>
>  >states in the modern sense that far back, you get <BR>
>  >maybe two: Egypt and China.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  India?<BR>
<BR>
Nope.  I don't think you can equate the Harappan culture with modern<BR>
India or any other nation-state of today.  Of course, the continuity between<BR>
Middle Kingdom Egypt and present-day Egypt, or between Shang Dynasty<BR>
China and present-day China, is pretty tenuous too.  Which is my point<BR>
anyway :-).<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:41:31 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mars Exploration<BR>
<BR>
Thad Coons writes:<BR>
> Wilbur and Orville had similar problems a century ago. Even<BR>
> supposing you did invent a machine that could fly, what use would<BR>
> it possibly be? The number of working prototypes was zero, the<BR>
> history of the industry was even more dismal than the aerospace<BR>
> industry is now, and ISTR they got the same kind of reactions<BR>
> from backers they approached.  <BR>
<BR>
However, the startup costs were dramatically lower (which _does_ matter).  Note that I never said that commercialized space travel was impossible, just that it isn't particularly surprising that no company has decided to throw money at the problem.<BR>
<BR>
> >Actually, the problem is that they can't guarantee a profit<BR>
> >_ever_, and certainly aren't going to generate a profit in the<BR>
> >next five years.<BR>
> <BR>
> Guaranteeing any profit, let alone a quick one, is more than they<BR>
> ought to do, and both companies and investors should know it.<BR>
> Pioneering new technology is inherently risky. Investors<BR>
> overestimating the risks and underestimating the potential return<BR>
> appears to be the real problem.<BR>
<BR>
Hm...actually, that's unclear.  The problem may be inventors underestimating the risks (I don't think they're overestimating the return; I just suspect they're being rather optimistic in their estimates of the capability of whatever technology they're hawking).  This problem is endemic in the space industry; the shuttle was _supposed_ to be exactly what you describe, it just turned out that the technology of the time was not up to the task of building a fully reusable SSTO.<BR>
<BR>
My basic argument here is that you seem to believe that cheap space travel is easy, with just a little bit of research, and that if corporations/nasa/ whatever would just recognize this, the problem would be solved.  I claim that cheap space travel is a fundamentally hard problem, which will require application of large amounts of time, money, and research.  In addition, while I am not awed by NASAs performance, I haven't exactly been impressed by most of its competition either.  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:40:33 EST<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12/20/99 8:16:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> That was the *height* of the Assyrian Empire IIRC.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  The Minoan Empire is a possibilty, but I think the eruption of Thera<BR>
>  wiped them out centuries earlier.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  The Phoenicians might be around. <BR>
>  <BR>
>  Other "countries" to consider are things like the Anasazi in the<BR>
>  Southwest, the folks who built Ankor Wat in Cambodia, etc. <BR>
<BR>
Point is, *none* of those cultures have lasted with any degree of continuity<BR>
to the present day.  Nor will today's nation-states last 3,500 years into<BR>
any reasonably-imaginable future.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:49:14 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
JFZeigler@aol.com writes:<BR>
> Point is, *none* of those cultures have lasted with any degree of<BR>
> continuity to the present day.  Nor will today's nation-states last 3,500<BR>
> years into any reasonably-imaginable future.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, almost everything in Traveller is unreasonably stable (the Zhodani culture has been stable for how long?  A hundred thousand years or so?) so it isn't entirely unreasonable within the Traveller context to have recognizeable remnants.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:58:53 -0600<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
At 06:35 PM 12/20/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>I personally think that the current trend of increasingly fractured<BR>
>nation-states and the rise of "borderless" identification groups will<BR>
>continue. In addition, I think that economic polities will be the route of<BR>
>the future, or at least the near future.<BR>
><BR>
>I must add the disclaimer that I don't think that those trends are a good<BR>
>thing, it just happens to look like the way things are going.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Stratfor just put up their decade forecast for 2000-2010. They disagree<BR>
with you. Go to www.stratfor.com and hunt around, you should be able to<BR>
find it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:07:40 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In a message dated 12/20/99 8:16:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > That was the *height* of the Assyrian Empire IIRC.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  The Minoan Empire is a possibilty, but I think the eruption of Thera<BR>
> >  wiped them out centuries earlier.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  The Phoenicians might be around.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  Other "countries" to consider are things like the Anasazi in the<BR>
> >  Southwest, the folks who built Ankor Wat in Cambodia, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> Point is, *none* of those cultures have lasted with any degree of continuity<BR>
> to the present day.  Nor will today's nation-states last 3,500 years into<BR>
> any reasonably-imaginable future.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, M:1100 regimes might enhance their legitimacy by tracing their<BR>
lineage back to the "glory days" of whatever ancient peoples ruled the<BR>
area.  A current example of this is Maddas Hinsein in Iraq, claiming to<BR>
be the rightful successor regime to the ancient Babylonians.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, "there will _always_ be an England."  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
IMHO, Japan and England (though not necessarily the UK) would be among<BR>
the more likely current nation-states to maintain some sort of national<BR>
identity, even in M:1100.  This is because they are both island nations,<BR>
with relatively long senses of national identity.  Japan traces its<BR>
identity back 2649 years (October, AD 1940 was the 2600th year of the<BR>
Japanese Empire, according to Dan van der Vat's book _The Pacific<BR>
Campaign: The U.S.-Japanese Naval War 1941-1945_.)  England, meanwhile,<BR>
has not been invaded and conquered since AD 1066, nearly 1000 years ago.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:17:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@ctaz.com><BR>
Subject: Re: South Park's Cartman as a Imperial Noble <BR>
<BR>
> On Tue, 07 Dec 1999 13:46:23 -0800, Keith Johnson<BR>
> <keithalanjohnson@home.com> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >At 04:04 PM 12/7/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> >>At 10:21 AM 12/7/1999 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> >So which of the Archdukes is Cartman?<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>Based on girth, Norris.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Cartman is clearly Lucan.<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><Cartman voice> I'm the emperor! Respect my authori-ty! </Cartman voice><BR>
> ><BR>
> <Cartman voice> Oh, I really hate you guys, so much. I really hate you<BR>
> guys. </Cartman voice><BR>
<BR>
<Cartman voice> Screw you guys, I'm goin to the Throne! </Cartman voice><BR>
<BR>
Keven<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
tc++ tm+ tn+ t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure<BR>
                                                     In Reavers' Deep<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:43:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: the north american union<BR>
<BR>
> After two wars, the score is tied at:<BR>
> US: 1<BR>
> UK: 1<BR>
<BR>
Hehe, best out of three?<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:52:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
Who won, everybody's debating. Well, by Clausewitz's<BR>
definition of victory as "making the enemy do your<BR>
will," a sensible government will have a set of goals,<BR>
presumably some more important than others. Since the<BR>
USA invaded Canada, Canada's goal was simple: survive<BR>
as a nation. That is a greater victory than avoiding<BR>
having your citizens press-ganged into someone else's<BR>
navy, isn't it? So both sides achieved their<BR>
objectives, both sides won; but Canada's victory was<BR>
the greater, since it was a more important issue,<BR>
surely.<BR>
<BR>
A similar example is Vietnam; the North's goal was to<BR>
unite Vietnam under a communist government, the USA's<BR>
goal was to keep the south non-communist. In that<BR>
sense, the commies won... but twenty years later<BR>
Vietnam turned around and wanted trade with the<BR>
western world, blocked by the USA, and was forced to<BR>
introduce market reforms... so now the USA has won.<BR>
<BR>
I'll leave the ObTravs to those more knowledgeable<BR>
about Trav history! I'm usre not all victories there<BR>
are clear cut and decisive...<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:09:26 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Scumbags (was: chicks with guns, and 3I porno)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 9:29 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On 20 Dec 99, at 13:45, The Roc wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Except that in many cases, in the words of a copper friend of mine,<BR>
> > "...when we discover someone in possession of a nug (a M*A*S*H term for<BR>
> > "gun" adopted by my friends) that shouldn't have a nug , we know he's a<BR>
> > scumbag (criminal)..."  Many more successful prosecutions have resulted<BR>
by<BR>
> > finding a rifle in the boot of a car for example, of someone that<BR>
doesn't<BR>
> > need one, and further investigation had shown shady goings on.  It can<BR>
> > make the black and white of it seem less grey.<BR>
><BR>
> I would suggest that the fact that you're searching the boot of<BR>
> someone's car means that there's a good chance he's a scumbag, gun or<BR>
> no gun. Assuming that a copper has to show due cause to search a car<BR>
> where you are, that is.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
That's correct and was what I meant, even if I didn't express it properly.<BR>
The point was that finding said weapon added greatly to the chance of a<BR>
successful prosecution because the police knew the scumbag had an illegal<BR>
weapon, and the jury had an inkling that the "defendant" couldn't be all<BR>
that honest if he had an illegal weapon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1538<BR>
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